[martel80]

Sorry, i'm tired, i forgot to specify what i was talking about. Let me rephrase...

Speaking of which, do you know if the DA conversion to the speakers of the monitor/XLR output within a typical interface (i.e. my Antelope) generally uses the same DAC as the headphone output? Or are they usually different the monitor output and HP outputs using their own separate DACs?

If they are the same DAC, then i might as well just get a headphone amp (instead of a DAC-amp), because the DAC for my speakers interface's monitor output seems quite good, and if that's what's getting used for the headphones what the headphone output is using too then that's good enough for me.

You very rarely see two separate DACs in audio interfaces.

On the Discrete 4 Pro Spec pages, they don't mention seperate DACs.

The ones that I'm aware of that have separate DAC are the RME Fireface, Babyface and ADI-2. The later being their Mastering grade DACs.

 

[Barncore]

You very rarely see two separate DACs in audio interfaces.

On the Discrete 4 Pro Spec pages, they don't mention seperate DACs.



The ones that I'm aware of that have separate DAC are the RME Fireface, Babyface and ADI-2. The later being their Mastering grade DACs.

Gotcha.

Ok so now that that's out the way, going back to our previous conversation... Why do you insist on saving up more money for the A70 over the A30? Just out of curiosity. A30 is more than enough power for the Hifiman planars right? In fact the A30 itself is probably overkill, from what I can tell numbers wise.
More power doesn't mean better sound though right? Having more power than needed won't make it sound better.
That's what someone over at ASR told me anyway.

Is there some other essential advantage to the A70 over the A30 outside of more power?

Why not suggest the Topping L30 II if transparent power is the goal?

 

[martel80]

Gotcha.

Ok so now that that's out the way, going back to our previous conversation... Why do you insist on saving up more money for the A70 over the A30? Just out of curiosity. A30 is more than enough power for the Hifiman planars right? In fact the A30 itself is probably overkill, from what I can tell numbers wise.
More power doesn't mean better sound though right? Having more power than needed won't make it sound better.
That's what someone over at ASR told me anyway.

Is there some other essential advantage to the A70 over the A30 outside of more power?

Why not suggest the Topping L30 II if transparent power is the goal?

My thought process over the years have changed from, ''let's get what I think is needed and don't overshoot for extra'' to ''let's get what will overkill what I really need in case I decide to get something else that might require that ''extra'' I'm currently overlooking''.

A good example of that have been my Studio Monitors path. Started over two decades ago on Gennies 1031 in a professional studio to get myself a set of Behringer B2031 for my house. My mix was all over the place when I was working home and had to cross reference all the time on supposedly way less proficient system. I won't go step by step about my whole path but the point I'm trying to put across is, today, you're here on Head-fi talking about an affordable amp to feed your tiny GAS for something that will bring very small improvement compared to what's possibly achievable if planed on long term. ''Tomorrow'', you'll turn around and realize that you spent 400$ on something that is not worth 100$ anymore and it's way under-built for what's needed at your present moment. While I love my Nano's I know for a fact that there's way better built out there and the Nano's are just momentarily helping me reconciliate with the idea that Headphone can be proficient too if used in a correct manner.

So to come back to your question, my idea is that (and thats only my POV that nobody need to share) , If the L70 pro is borderline capable if you , one day, want to upgrade to a power hungry set of cans, why not invest the extra 300$ and make sure you have your base covered ? Cause lets be honest, the technology will evolve but given the specs of those devices, other then the power that will most probably always be a thing that some cans demand, you will never hear a -140 db noise floor nor will you ever notice a -120db crosstalk nor will you ever hear over 100 db of dynamic range. All of that is just way pass human hearing capacity.

So other then going electrostatic with a completely different type of power amp, I don't see you EVER retiring an A70 pro and it's 17W per channel at 16 ohm if you stay in the current state of devices that are available to us ( again, except electrostatic and a very VERY few Monsters out there ) .

In the end, it's your money and you do whatever you want with it but I personally prefer to stay put and not jump on a set of Audeze LCD-X just because it's the next baby step-up in my personal preference book and wait to get what I really need and be over with it. Just like I did with my Lipinski L-707 a few years ago and my Rythmik F12 this year.

I'm done buying 4 years crap and jumping into the next hype train over and over again.

EDIT: just look at what use to be considered the reliable workhorse for mids , the HD650. It appeared in 2003 and just recently been retired as what's best at what it does. That's almost a 20 years life span. And those example goes on and on.

 

[TheR0v3r]

Gotcha.

Ok so now that that's out the way, going back to our previous conversation... Why do you insist on saving up more money for the A70 over the A30? Just out of curiosity. A30 is more than enough power for the Hifiman planars right? In fact the A30 itself is probably overkill, from what I can tell numbers wise.
More power doesn't mean better sound though right? Having more power than needed won't make it sound better.
That's what someone over at ASR told me anyway.

Is there some other essential advantage to the A70 over the A30 outside of more power?

Why not suggest the Topping L30 II if transparent power is the goal?

The Chord Mojo 2 works really well and has transparent DSP onboard with four EQ options (shelving).

 

[Barncore]

My thought process over the years have changed from, ''let's get what I think is needed and don't overshoot for extra'' to ''let's get what will overkill what I really need in case I decide to get something else that might require that ''extra'' I'm currently overlooking''.

A good example of that have been my Studio Monitors path. Started over two decades ago on Gennies 1031 in a professional studio to get myself a set of Behringer B2031 for my house. My mix was all over the place when I was working home and had to cross reference all the time on supposedly way less proficient system. I won't go step by step about my whole path but the point I'm trying to put across is, today, you're here on Head-fi talking about an affordable amp to feed your tiny GAS for something that will bring very small improvement compared to what's possibly achievable if planed on long term. ''Tomorrow'', you'll turn around and realize that you spent 400$ on something that is not worth 100$ anymore and it's way under-built for what's needed at your present moment. While I love my Nano's I know for a fact that there's way better built out there and the Nano's are just momentarily helping me reconciliate with the idea that Headphone can be proficient too if used in a correct manner.

So to come back to your question, my idea is that (and thats only my POV that nobody need to share) , If the L70 pro is borderline capable if you , one day, want to upgrade to a power hungry set of cans, why not invest the extra 300$ and make sure you have your base covered ? Cause lets be honest, the technology will evolve but given the specs of those devices, other then the power that will most probably always be a thing that some cans demand, you will never hear a -140 db noise floor nor will you ever notice a -120db crosstalk nor will you ever hear over 100 db of dynamic range. All of that is just way pass human hearing capacity.

So other then going electrostatic with a completely different type of power amp, I don't see you EVER retiring an A70 pro and it's 17W per channel at 16 ohm if you stay in the current state of devices that are available to us ( again, except electrostatic and a very VERY few Monsters out there ) .

In the end, it's your money and you do whatever you want with it but I personally prefer to stay put and not jump on a set of Audeze LCD-X just because it's the next baby step-up in my personal preference book and wait to get what I really need and be over with it. Just like I did with my Lipinski L-707 a few years ago and my Rythmik F12 this year.

I'm done buying 4 years crap and jumping into the next hype train over and over again.

EDIT: just look at what use to be considered the reliable workhorse for mids , the HD650. It appeared in 2003 and just recently been retired as what's best at what it does. That's almost a 20 years life span. And those example goes on and on.

I get your point, and i feel the same way, but the L30 ii has 3.5w x2 @16ohm, which is more than enough to power any of the "end game" Hifiman planars i would've thought. Right? It also has the cleanest signal measured on ASR yet and it's also one of the least expensive HP amps out there. Given that it's only a tiny investment, i don't think it's a big deal if i decide to upgrade at some point in 3+ years or something. Given the L3ii is $150 USD, that's only $50 per year that i'd have lost. That's worth it.

To me, it's just as smart not to overpay for overkill as it is to pay extra for future-proofed end-game devices. There's plenty of gear that i've bought over the years that has all these features i never use. It goes both ways.

Audiophile world is a real rabbit hole that i don't plan on sinking too much money into. I could spend an extra $1,000 per year to find my perfect DAC/amp/headphone combo, or i could just secure great monitoring now and to move on with improving my craft.

Learning and internalizing how your headphone setup sounds is arguably more important than buying the best of the best stuff anyway really. E.g. Andrew Schepps still mixes on those basic/common Sony MDR headphones, because he's familiar with them. Glenn Schick used to master on IEM's for like 5 years, pop artists too, not small time stuff.

One day i'll probably spend like $5k+ on a state of the art AD/DA converter like a Lynx Hilo or an Apogee or an RME or something, but today isn't that day, so an A30 wouldn't be an end-game device in my setup any more than a L30ii would anyway i don't think. Right now the goal is to find the best bang for buck that matches well with Hifiman planars

The Chord Mojo 2 works really well and has transparent DSP onboard with four EQ options (shelving).

Yeah came across that one yesterday. Seems really great, and love the portability, but the price is over double what i'm willing to pay right now

 

[martel80]

I get your point, and i feel the same way, but the L30 ii has 3.5w x2 @16ohm, which is more than enough to power any of the "end game" Hifiman planars i would've thought. Right? It also has the cleanest signal measured on ASR yet and it's also one of the least expensive HP amps out there. Given that it's only a tiny investment, i don't think it's a big deal if i decide to upgrade at some point in 3+ years or something. Given the L3ii is $150 USD, that's only $50 per year that i'd have lost. That's worth it.

To me, it's just as smart not to overpay for overkill as it is to pay extra for future-proofed end-game devices. There's plenty of gear that i've bought over the years that has all these features i never use. It goes both ways.

Audiophile world is a real rabbit hole that i don't plan on sinking too much money into. I could spend an extra $1,000 per year to find my perfect DAC/amp/headphone combo, or i could just secure great monitoring now and to move on with improving my craft.

Learning and internalizing how your headphone setup sounds is arguably more important than buying the best of the best stuff anyway really. E.g. Andrew Schepps still mixes on those basic/common Sony MDR headphones, because he's familiar with them. Glenn Schick used to master on IEM's for like 5 years, pop artists too, not small time stuff.

One day i'll probably spend like $5k+ on a state of the art AD/DA converter like a Lynx Hilo or an Apogee or an RME or something, but today isn't that day, so an A30 wouldn't be an end-game device in my setup any more than a L30ii would anyway i don't think. Right now the goal is to find the best bang for buck that matches well with Hifiman planars


Yeah came across that one yesterday. Seems really great, and love the portability, but the price is over double what i'm willing to pay right now

Yeah, that make sense .

Just so you know, 3.5w won’t be enough for the HE6 line or the Susvara but you are correct, it would be plenty enough for the rest. I still think all their amp lineup are good so whichever you chose, I think it’ll be great and accomplish what you want to confirm about headphones power requirements.

Rover’s suggestion also seem to be another nice little toy. Worth checking out imo. But there’s also a DAC in it so you might need to check if it can be run in serial like the toppings and if there’s a true bypass for your monitors. Unless you have 2 set of stereo outputs on your antelope obviously.

 

[TheR0v3r]

That unnatural , metalic sound you are describing is specific to a lot of planars, electromagnetic and ribbon cans. That was also my impression the first time I got them. It took me about a week to get ''used'' to it. It's just a lot faster and sharper then dynamic paper cones and you can hear a lot of details in the upper range which really underline bad conversions be it the sound format or the DAC itself. I fear you'll find the same sound signature in the Organic. I know it might sound counter intuitive given the name but they are not THAT tamed in the treble region and they are sill planars.

If you like a more relaxed and laid back presentation, I believe a set of Sennies 660 HD v2 might be just what you need. Or some Neumann NDH 30 for that matter.

This is inline with my experiments with the resolution of my system:

One thing I notice time and time again is that when my system becomes less resolving, especially in the treble region, the Nano’s come across as bright/slightly harsh. The Nano’s are a great match for resolving, well setup systems. IMHO.

 

[Dekameter]

So the more I use the Nanos both stock and with different eq settings, I am realizing maybe they aren't for me. No matter what eq settings I use they still sound a bit unnatural and metallic to me. I've passed my return window so I am debating selling them and my Focal Clear OG and just getting the Ayra Stealth or Organic as my singular pair of headphones. I wish I had a way to try out headphones before buying them but I have no stores within two hours of me.

If timbre is your utmost priority, I'd recommend the Aurorus Borealis without having to reach Arya Organic levels of cost. I currently have the Borealis and the Nano, and I flip back and forth between them. For a dynamic, it's surprisingly really close to Nano in speed and exceeds in detail. I haven't heard anything quite like its naturalness out of any transducer so far, with the TGXear coming second. Honestly I'm surprised you find the Nano metallic-y, given one of the first things that struck me was how good the timbre was compared to previous planars like the Ananda Stealth v2 (25 Ohms) and Ananda Stealth v3 (16 ohm), though it's still not quite to the level dynamic drivers can get.

I also had a chance to listen to the HEKv2, but I wasn't really that impressed with them over the Nano and the Nano was closer to what I expected when people described the HEKv2 as "slightly V-shaped". I would worry about the Organic doubling down on the V-shape and pushing the treble even further.

 

[LordImperious]

If timbre is your utmost priority, I'd recommend the Aurorus Borealis without having to reach Arya Organic levels of cost. I currently have the Borealis and the Nano, and I flip back and forth between them. For a dynamic, it's surprisingly really close to Nano in speed and exceeds in detail. I haven't heard anything quite like its naturalness out of any transducer so far, with the TGXear coming second. Honestly I'm surprised you find the Nano metallic-y, given one of the first things that struck me was how good the timbre was compared to previous planars like the Ananda Stealth v2 (25 Ohms) and Ananda Stealth v3 (16 ohm), though it's still not quite to the level dynamic drivers can get.

I also had a chance to listen to the HEKv2, but I wasn't really that impressed with them over the Nano and the Nano was closer to what I expected when people described the HEKv2 as "slightly V-shaped". I would worry about the Organic doubling down on the V-shape and pushing the treble even further.

I'm actually starting to appreciate the Nano without eq. I find a lot of the eq settings I've tried make the sound a bit smoother in terms of sharpness but worse in terms of timbre. I'm not an expert in terms of frequency response but i think some frequencies being lowered and making others stand out more. I'm still pretty new to the hobby so I'm sorry I can't give more detail than that. I'm wondering if upgrading from my fiio k7 could help me even more.

I'm definitely going to check out Borealis though. I've never heard of them before.

 

[martel80]

I'm not an expert in terms of frequency response but i think some frequencies being lowered and making others stand out more. I'm still pretty new to the hobby so I'm sorry I can't give more detail than that.

It takes time and practice to train someone’s ears.
Good thing is that, nowadays, there’s many resources, available online, to help you train your ears. Some Of them are also free.

Here’s a popular one;
SoundGym

The basic exercises are free but you also have many other domain specific exercises available as a subscription.

I think it’s a fun and practical way to do the dirty work and get you there by understanding the fundamentals.

 

[Barncore]

Hey Martel (or anyone else), forgive the nooby question, but I'm about to buy the L30ii amp (with no DAC, will use my Antelope interface DAC), and just wanna make sure I'm getting the right cables/adapters

So just to confirm:
-My interface has 1/4" monitor outputs (see attached pic). That's called TRS right?
-The L30ii has RCA ins and outs.
-My monitors/speakers have XLR input.
-The cable that goes from my interface to my monitors is a TRS-to-XLR, so I might as well keep that (for the length)

So I would get 2 pairs of RCA-to-TRS cables right?

1 that goes from the interface into the amp, and one that goes from the amp to the TRS end of the cable (that goes into the speakers)

Like this? (Just as an example)

https://www.amazon.com.au/Hosa-CPR-202-Stereo-Interconnect-Cable/dp/B000068O17/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=1I5YA61WRCWAW&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.EA-F6ggKaeAxALHoJ-SwA0NINwwvctNiYIuhLSe57y_NTqlqxdlcm3UgNbphJi0FodY3vhitIzMViC8ZRkVBIxgi8AOJ0NhnuOk1WTsJa6jS4YL6BnGsSULzfdJfkT96wRwGK6jOdA-YKpoG7xDxuDmn27WCJ8CyUoZ376UxTLf0QYuC7hBzbWm_nfl_RPNZPHLcDOOBWCYeufKzybbabA.WnCikszSWryFAnbzHSVJltD2qqbbKKfWJGiDVmaslTg&dib_tag=se&keywords=trs+to+rca+cable&qid=1715315802&sprefix=trs+to+rca+cable,aps,1927&sr=8-3

Edit: Or even something like this for the 1/4-to-XLR cable to plug into the amp's outputs with: https://www.amazon.com.au/tunghey-6...79&sprefix=1/4+to+rca+adapter,aps,345&sr=8-10

Is this the right idea? Anything I should be aware of?

 

[Barncore]

One more question. The 1/4" monitor outputs in the back of my interface are balanced TRS outputs. But RCA is unbalanced only right? Does that mean i'd be losing quality if go from a TRS output into an RCA input? In other words, is it a bad idea to run my monitors/speakers through the amp if it means it's going through RCA ins and outs? (right now they're going from the balanced TRS outputs (from the interface) into XLR inputs (in the speakers)

 

[martel80]

@Barncore

You will need a set (2 cables) of TS Male (No need for TRS if you're going unbalanced anyways) to RCA Male to go from your Antelope into your Headphone amp.
Like this :

You will then need a set (2 cables) of RCA Male to XLR ( Male or female depending on your monitors input)

Like this:

(XLR Females have holes, XLR Males have schlongs for a triple treat baby , all night looooong !!! Lets go !!)

To resume:

2 x TS Male into Monitor L + R of your Antelope.

Into RCA Male Input R (6) + L (7) of your Topping L30 II

Then you'll go from your L30 II RCA Output ( 2 x RCA Male ) to your Monitors input (I bet those are 2 x XLR Male)


You will not have any signal degradation unless your cables are covering great distances (we're talking over 16 feets) or that your room is suffering from very rare and bad interference (think old cellphone waves or an old fart using an AM radio or Short Wave radio close to where you live ) . In the later case, you would need to get a good set of shielded cables but if you're not living in a slum, you will be just fine with any generic cables as long as they are not of the extreme cheap type.

Now if you're into the esoteric part of hifi, I suggest buying yourself a few different sets of 300-400$ cables and a bag of shrooms and letting us know how different they sound.

Hope that help.


EDIT:

Just to be clear, it is best practice to keep your connection in between devices as clean as possible, meaning that if you can ( and yes you can seeing your interface outputs and line outs ) you should used them separately. So keep your Interface connected to your Monitors directly and use a set of Line Outputs and connect it to your Headphone amps. Same thing, 2 cables that go TS Male to RCA Male. No need for the second set of cables. You will then need to switch outputs on your Antelope whenever you want to listen to your cans. (Switch from Monitor Outputs to Line out.)

From the Antelope Discrete 4 manual :
https://support.antelopeaudio.com/en/support/solutions/articles/42000016944-discrete-4-user-manual

Function Button 1 (top-most)​

• Pressing Function Button 1 cycles through Monitor Volume, Line Out Volume, and Headphone Output (HP) 1 – 4 Volume. Use the rotary control to adjust volume.
• Press and hold Function Button 1 to access the Discrete 4 System Menu (explained below). Use the rotary control to select an entry in the menu. Press the rotary control to enter the selected sub-menu. Turn the rotary control left or right to adjust the setting.
• Press the rotary control to toggle Monitor Volume Mute On/Off.
• Press any of the function buttons to exit.

 

[martel80]

For your general knowledge:

Left (TS) is unbalanced...............................................................................................Right (TRS) is balanced.

 

[Barncore]

@Barncore

You will need a set (2 cables) of TS Male (No need for TRS if you're going unbalanced anyways) to RCA Male to go from your Antelope to your Headphone amp.
Like this :


You will then need a set (2 cables) of RCA Male to XLR ( Male or female depending on your monitors input)

Like this:



(XLR Females have holes, XLR Males have schlongs for a triple treat baby , all night looooong !!! Lets go !!)



To resume:



2 x TS Male into Monitor L + R of your Antelope.



Into RCA Male Input R (6) + L (7) of your Topping L30 II

Then you'll go from your L30 II RCA Output ( 2 x RCA Male ) to your Monitors input (I bet those are 2 x XLR Male)


You will not have any signal degradation unless your cables are covering great distances (we're talking over 16 feets) or that your room is suffering from very rare and bad interference (think old cellphone waves or an old fart using an AM radio or Short Wave radio close to where you live ) . In the later case, you would need to get a good set of shielded cables but if you're not living in a slum, you will be just fine with any generic cables as long as they are not of the extreme cheap type.

Now if you're into the esoteric part of hifi, I suggest buying yourself a few different sets of 300-400$ cables and a bag of shrooms and letting us know how different they sound.

Hope that help.


EDIT:

Just to be clear, it is best practice to keep your connection in between devices as clean as possible, meaning that if you can ( and yes you can seeing your interface outputs and line outs ) you should used them separately. So keep your Interface connected to your Monitors directly and use a set of Line Outputs and connect it to your Headphone amps. Same thing, 2 cables that go TS Male to RCA Male. No need for the second set of cables. You will then need to switch outputs on your Antelope whenever you want to listen to your cans. (Switch from Monitor Outputs to Line out.)

That's very clear, thank you.

What about this though: I'd like to keep the cable that i already own that's currently going from the interface to the monitors (it's a TRS>XLR cable). The reason i want to keep it is because it's quite long, and i'll be able to save money getting a short adapter rather than a long RCA>XLR cable, since length is already covered with the cable i have already. Would it be stupid to just get an RCA>TS adapter that joins my TRS>XLR cable to the amp?

Does that make sense? I don't know if i've explained that properly.
Basically, i'm thinking i might save money if i get a RCA>TS adapter (or short cable) instead of the long RCA Male > XLR cable. What do you think?

Like this:

Or is there some kind of disadvantage to that?